Dog Training Today with Will Bangura for Pet Parents, Kids & Family, Pets and Animals, and Dog Training Professionals. This is a Education & How To Dog Training Podcast.

#116 Socialization, Dog Parks, Doggie Daycare and Why Balance Trainers Wont Come on My Podcast Dog Training with Will Bangura, M.S., CDBC, CBCC-KA, CPDT-KA, FFCP

• Will Bangura, M.S., CDBC, CBCC-KA, CPDT-KA, FFCP is a World Renowned Dog Behaviorist, Certified Dog Behavior Consultant, Certified Professional Dog Trainer, and a Fear Free Certified Professional with over 36 years of experience with the most difficult of • Season 4 • Episode 116

Share episode

Text Me Your Questions

In this exploration, we'll contrast the dog culture in various parts of the world, specifically drawing parallels between the US and Germany. Here, we'll see how a simple walk with your dog transforms into a lesson in maintaining tranquility and mutual respect. I'll also spill the beans on those adrenaline-filled dog parks and doggy daycares - weighing their advantages against potential risks. From my discussion with YouTuber Robert Cabral and world champion sport dog trainer Ivan Balabanoff, we highlight the need for civil discourse about dog training methods and the challenges in engaging in them.

Are electronic collars, prong collars, and even choke collars an essential part of training your furry friend? Or can we achieve the same results with early and consistent socialization? Join me, Will Bangura, as I share my experiences as a balanced trainer, and why I firmly believe that these controversial tools are unnecessary. Together, we journey into the heart of pet care and training, exposing the controversies seeping into the industry and discussing the unregulated use of aversive methods by trainers who often fail to understand the root causes of a pet's behavior.

Our journey ends with a deep dive into the significance of early exposure and socialization for your pet, as endorsed by the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behaviorists. We'll discuss the importance of puppy vaccinations and the effects of over-crowded dog parks, striking the perfect balance between exposure and comfort. By the end of our exploration, you'll have a deeper understanding of dog socialization, training controversies, and how to ensure your pup grows into a well-behaved and balanced pet. Dog Training with Will Bangura, M.S., CDBC, CBCC-KA, CPDT-KA, FFCP

Support the show

If you need professional help please visit my Dog Behaviorist website.
Go here for Free Dog Training Articles

Speaker 1:

Raised by wolves with canine DNA and his blood. Having trained more than 24,000 vets, helping you and your fur babies thrive, Live in studio. It's Pet Talk today, with Will Bangura answering your pet behavior and training questions. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome your host and favorite pet behavior expert, Will Bangura.

Speaker 2:

Good Saturday morning pet lovers. I'm Will Bangura. This is another episode of Pet Talk Today, live here on Facebook, where I'm here each and every Saturday morning from 12 o'clock noon Eastern time till 1pm, that's 9 o'clock Pacific time till 10 o'clock. If you're brand new to Pet Talk today, let me talk a little bit about how this works. Throughout the next hour I'm going to be talking everything dog training and dog behavior. However, one of the biggest goals of this show is to help you, the pet parent, with your dog, with whatever kind of behavior or training issues you might be dealing with.

Speaker 2:

I don't care if it's a nuisance behavior like jumping or barking or getting up on the counter, stealing things. Maybe it's something more serious. Maybe you've got a dog with separation, anxiety, fears, phobias. Maybe you've got a dog that's aggressive or reactive. Maybe you've got what I think is the most difficult problem to deal with, and that's multiple dogs in the house. Fighting Could be, resource guarding Could be. You brought a new adopted dog into the home and everything was going well for a little while and then, all of a sudden, the dogs start fighting, and that happens oftentimes. It doesn't matter what kind of problem you have.

Speaker 2:

If you've got a question about your dog's behavior and you'd like me to help you. There's a couple ways we can do this. First, you can go ahead and type your comments in the comments section. You can go ahead and put your question there and I'll be happy to look at it, answer your question. Also, if you would, please let me know where you're watching from, what kind of pets you have, what their names are, and also do me a favor, hit that like button, hit that share button, so that more people can benefit from what we do here at Pet Talk today. Hopefully you've had a great week. Not sure what part of the world you're watching from.

Speaker 2:

I'm in Arizona. I'm excited because the weather is starting to get nice outside, and that's always a big plus in Arizona, so now we can get the dogs out. It's been over 100 degrees pretty much every day for several months. Now it's starting to get down and I'm able to get my dogs out and start doing more things with them. So I'm excited.

Speaker 2:

Today I'm going to be talking about socialization. We talk a lot in dog training about how important it is to get your dog out and to socialize your dog, but what does that really mean? I think that a lot of people have a misunderstanding about what it means to socialize your dog, so we're going to be talking about that today. Also, I'm going to be talking about dog parks and doggy daycare. I'm going to talk about the good, the bad and the ugly as it relates to dog parks and doggy daycare. In addition to that, we're going to be talking about the constantly ever-growing controversy between the clash of the titans in the dog training world, and that is when you train your dog. Should you use aversive methods? Should you use aversive tools? Is there the necessity to use a shock collar? Is there the necessity to use a prong collar? Is there the necessity to use a choke collar? Do you need to punish your dog in order to get your dog to listen? Well, we're going to talk about that as well.

Speaker 2:

Things have really gotten stirred up since the dog daddy controversy. If you don't know about the dog daddy, get on my podcast and you can hear I've done some recent podcasts about that. If you have not subscribed to the Pet Talk Today podcast, make sure that you do that. Do a Google search. Go to any podcasting platform like Apple Podcast or Spotify, google Podcast Search for the Pet Talk Today podcast. Make sure that you subscribe to the podcast If you love what we're doing. Please give us a five-star review on our podcast.

Speaker 2:

There's a lot of things that I post on the audio podcast that you don't see here on Facebook Live. There's over 115 episodes on the audio podcast, many of those that you don't see here on Facebook. So check out the Pet Talk Today podcast, again talking about recent things in dog training. So here's the deal. Bring this up here real quick. So this is a picture of Robert Cabral, and Robert is a big time YouTuber. Those of you that know me I am not into social media. Really, the only thing I do on social media is the Facebook Live and I don't do really anything to promote the page. Robert has a couple hundred thousand people, I think, that subscribe to his YouTube channel.

Speaker 2:

He's a balanced trainer and Robert does use positive reinforcement to train the dogs, but then he follows up by using a prong collar or an electronic collar and he believes that it's absolutely necessary. And Robert wants to talk to force free positive reinforcement trainers and debate them, because he believes that positive reinforcement has limitations. He believes that it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when you encounter a distraction that has higher value than whatever positive reinforcer that you have and you're going to lose control of your dog, and where there is some truth to that. There's a lot of pieces missing as to how we use positive reinforcement to make sure that dogs are reliable under insane distractions, and we don't use punishment to do that. Robert, we don't use negative reinforcement.

Speaker 2:

But here's the thing you put out this message that you want to talk about aversive methods and tools and you asked Zach George to debate you, and shame on you, zach George, for not taking not taking the invitation. You know positive reinforcement trainers. If you believe in what you're doing, you need to have these discussions, you need to have these dialogues. But, robert, I have personally messaged you and you have avoided me at all costs. I want to have you either on my podcast or I'll go on your podcast and we will have an intelligent, calm, civilized discussion about dog training. I don't believe there's any situation in training where you need to use aversive tools. I don't believe, in training a dog, that you need to use anything that causes fear, pain, intimidation, that you can train in any behavior using positive reinforcement alone and that you can eliminate any behavior using positive reinforcement alone. And if you can do that with positive reinforcement, why would you choose to use a method, why would you choose to use a tool that causes either emotional or physical discomfort to your dog? So, robert, the invitation is out there. It's on the table. All I've gotten back from you are insults to my character, and I don't appreciate that. If you're serious about your beliefs, your training, your methodology, then come on my podcast, let's talk about it, or I'll come on your podcast and talk about it any day, any time. You keep saying that there's no positive reinforcement trainers that will debate you and you use that as proof that positive reinforcement doesn't work. So invitation is out there to you.

Speaker 2:

Next, we've got Ivan Balabanoff. I believe is how he pronounces his name. Now, ivan Balabanoff is probably the best competition sport dog trainer in the world. He's a two time world champion. I think he's minimum 15 time national champion in protection sports. He's also a breeder. I believe he breeds Malinois. One thing I will say when it comes to protection sports and competition, you will probably never find a better trainer in the world today than Ivan Balabanoff. However, training high drive dogs like Belgian Malinois that are bred for that type of work and competing and being a world champion or being a national champion absolutely is completely different than working with pet dogs that have fears, anxieties, phobias and working to get the aggression out of the dogs. Ivan is another person who has put out a statement that he wants to talk to any positive reinforcement trainers and talk about dog training and have a civil discussion. Ivan, I've sent you a message. I have not heard back from you. Now you're a two time world champion. You're a minimum 15 time national champion.

Speaker 2:

There should be absolutely nothing that you would be afraid of when it comes to either coming on my podcast and talking about dog training and dog training methods or myself going on your podcast and talking about it, because you and Robert have a very loud voice on social media. Both of you have a couple hundred thousand followers on YouTube. That's a lot, I think. My God, I've got like 400 subscribers on my YouTube channel because I don't do YouTube videos. I'm not a social media person. I mean there are people literally. I mean these guys are putting out videos every day or every other day. Now, if you're putting out a video every day, if you're putting out a video every other day, you're not working with clients much at all. You are now. Your life is devoted to social media, and that's not me, my life. Social media, saturday mornings for about an hour, and I struggle with that as well.

Speaker 2:

Okay, so, ivan and Robert and anybody else, that's a balanced trainer that believes that it's absolutely necessary to use a prong collar and electronic collar or a choke collar to train a dog. If you think that you can't do it with positive reinforcement or if there's behaviors that you can't stop that you have to use a prong collar and electronic collar, a choke collar, You're wrong. Not only does science say you're wrong over and over and over again, but every day, for over 35 years of training, I can tell you with all of my experiences, that those tools aren't necessary. And at one time I used electronic collars, robert. At one time, ivan, I used electronic collars and prong collars. So it's not like I don't know how to use them. It's not like I don't understand how they work. It's not like I don't understand why you use electronic collars, why you use prong collars and show collars.

Speaker 2:

Robert and Ivan, you want to talk to positive reinforcement trainers that have never been balanced trainers. I've been where you're at. I've done the things that you have done. Yes, I have competed in sport competition. I am not a national champion. I competed when I was a teenager. I don't have any desire to compete with my dog. I'm not into working dog sports. I'm into helping the pet dog owner with their pet dog. And if you notice, robert has a Belgian Malinois to his left in that picture. Ivan has a Belgian Malinois to the left of his picture. There's a reason why a lot of these balanced trainers have Belgian Malinois and guys, if you come on my podcast, we'll talk about these high drive dogs that you're working with and how, comparing those dogs to typical pet dogs, you just can't do it All right. Enough of that and enough of those folks. I gave them enough of my time today.

Speaker 2:

But I wanted to put that out there because there's a lot of stuff blowing up on the internet, a lot of stuff blowing up on social media as it relates to the balanced trainers, those that use aversive tools and methods along with positive reinforcement. Trying to beat up on the positive reinforcement folks saying that thinking that positive reinforcement can train any behavior, can be used to get rid of any behavior, is pie in the sky. Thinking it all sounds good, but it doesn't work in reality. And then, after you say that and you beat up on positive reinforcement trainers, you start talking about, hey, why you need to use an electronic collar on your dog, why you need to use a prong collar on your dog, and you say, hey, one of the arguments that you use is, if positive reinforcement was so great, then everybody would be doing it.

Speaker 2:

Now, the arguments that you make, robert, the arguments that you make Ivan, they don't hold any weight in water. There's absolutely little to no logic to the arguments that you're making. And, ivan, all respect to you, if I ever wanted to bet on somebody when it comes to winning competition in protection sports, I'm going to bet on you, but you have absolutely, absolutely no clue when it comes to how you use positive reinforcement to stop behaviors. And you throw out a lot of information and you're very long-winded and your information that you're presenting simply is wrong. It's just simply wrong. And rather than just say, hey, it's simply wrong, ivan, why don't you come on my podcast? Or, like I said, I'll come on your podcast and we can discuss this. We can discuss this civilly. I'm a good guy. I am not going to yell and scream and shout. I'm all about positive reinforcement, but, ivan, you have not returned my messages. You've just been completely silent and you said any force-free trainer any. Well, here I am. Challenge accepted, let's do this All right.

Speaker 2:

Today I want to talk about socialization, I want to talk about dog parks, I want to talk about doggy daycare, and first let's talk about socialization. One of the biggest reasons why we have behavior problems with dogs especially when it comes to anxiety, fears, phobias, aggression, reactivity, problems with other dogs, problems with other people is a lack of socialization and early socialization. There is a critical window, a critical period of time and we call that the critical socialization period, and roughly that starts at three months and ends at about 13, 14, 15 weeks. So from the time they're three weeks of age until about, like I said, 13, 14, 15 weeks of age. That window is a very critical socialization period. Dogs that are not exposed to a lot of different sounds, a lot of different sites, a lot of different textures, they will start to develop fears and anxiety and phobias from lack of exposure. If you take a dog and you lock them up in your house and you don't let them out until they're three or four months of age. The majority of those dogs the majority of those dogs, if they weren't exposed to anything, are going to have significant fears, significant anxiety and potentially significant phobias. That's because of that critical window of socialization.

Speaker 2:

Now there's been two big problems, two huge problems with all of this. The first problem is people have been taught, people have been educated, and a lot of times it's been by their regular veterinarian. And all due respect to veterinarians, I love you guys. You have to know all kinds of things about medicine, not just with one species but multiple species. You've got one of the most difficult jobs there are. I love you guys, I love veterinarians, but I also have to have constructive criticism.

Speaker 2:

And many veterinarians scare, not because they're trying to scare you, but many veterinarians scare pet parents by saying listen, you need to keep your dog at home until it has all of its vaccinations. We don't want your dog to die of parvo in December and a lot of mentality of pet parents. The mind side is that and the thinking is I can't let my dog off property, I can't go anywhere with my dog until it's had all of its shots, because my dog could get sick and die the number one cause of death for dogs under the age of three is behavioral euthanasia, not parvo, not this temper. If we look at the things that kill dogs from the time they're born to the age of three, parvo and this temper are very, very low on the list. Very low on the list. Now do we want to be careful before your dog has had all of its shots? Absolutely, I'm not going to take my new puppy that doesn't have all of its vaccinations. I'm not going to take my new puppy to an area where all kinds of dogs were peeing and pooping and God knows what kind of bodily fluids are all over the grass in a place like that. I'm not going to have my dog interacting with a bunch of other dogs and possibly get parvo and this temper because I might not know if they've been vaccinated. But I'm not going to avoid dogs because if I wait for my dog to be completely vaccinated, that might be about 16 weeks of age. At that time that critical window for canine socialization has ended and so a lot of dogs are not even beginning the process of getting that socialization until 16 weeks of age, until they've had all their shots, in some cases later, and at that point it's too late.

Speaker 2:

But you want to listen to your vet. You're worried. You're worried your dog's going to get parvo. You're worried your dog's going to get this temper. Now let me just say this I am not a veterinarian. That is not my expertise. Veterinary medicine is not my expertise at all. I know a little bit enough to be dangerous.

Speaker 2:

The American Veterinary Society of Animal Behaviorist Veterinarians that have gone above and beyond just regular vet school. They've gone to specialize in behavior veterinary behaviorists All of them have put out a position statement. They're telling us we need to get our puppies out in the world, we need to get them exposed to everything. And they say don't, here it is, don't wait. Don't wait until your puppy has had all the shots. Why? Because it's more likely your dog is going to die from behavioral euthanasia than parvo and distemper. What do I mean by behavioral euthanasia? Well, dogs that end up being sent to the pound, sent to the shelter, re-homed, recycled because of behavior problems, and those behavior problems don't get resolved and the dog eventually ends up being euthanized. So it's more important to prevent behavior problems that in the end might lead to euthanasia, not that the dog should be euthanized for any of those behavior problems, but because of the overpopulation of shelters, these dogs get put into that system and they end up being euthanized versus dying from parvo and distemper. Now, parvo is a real concern, distemper is a real concern.

Speaker 2:

Please get your pets vaccinated. But the veterinarians that have specialized in behavior are saying hey, listen, don't worry that your dog doesn't have all of its shots. You need to get your dog out and expose it to everything. If your puppy was nursing on mom already, there should be antibodies to help your puppy's immune system right from the get-go. Antibodies from the mother's milk and typically, while they're with the litter, while they're with their mother, they get one vaccine. Most of the time this is the way it works and sometimes they even get two before you pick up your puppy. So in some cases, before you get your puppy, your puppy has the antibodies from nursing on mom and they've got some antibodies from the first vaccination that they got with the breeder and maybe even they got a second vaccination. Okay, there's two more to get. You get about four puppy shots to get them vaccinated typically. Well, definitely, definitely. If your dog has antibodies or your puppy's got antibodies from nursing on mom and has had one vaccine, your puppy already has some level of protection.

Speaker 2:

Now, like I said, the veterinary behaviors to myself would never tell you take your puppy to a dog park and be surrounded by many, many, many dogs and be around all kinds of fecal matter in urine from many, many dogs when one or more of them may be sick. We're not saying to do that. One of the big things about the socialization process most people, and a lot of new trainers, think that puppy socialization, canine socialization, means that your puppy, your dog, should meet as many people and meet as many dogs as possible, and I'm going to tell you that's wrong. I'm going to tell you that it's bad. I'm going to tell you that it's dangerous, just like I'm going to talk about dog parks, where a really good idea went bad. Look, I would love my dogs to be able to go to a dog park and run around with 10, 20 dogs just having a blast. Okay, I would love that. I understand the appeal of dog parks. It looks fantastic, it looks great, it looks fun. Imagine dogs just running around having a blast.

Speaker 2:

The problem with dog parks it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. If you frequent a dog park or dog parks frequently enough, it's not a matter of if. It's a matter of when there's going to be a dog fight in that dog park, and it could be with one dog, it could be with many dogs, it could be with your dog and now, all of a sudden, your dog may have a traumatic experience that now brings about all kinds of behavioral problems for your dog Fears, anxieties, phobias, aggression, reactivity. If you're ever thinking about taking your dog to a dog park, start frequenting dog parks without your dog. Watch how many times fights erupt.

Speaker 2:

There's a couple problems with dog parks. First of all, this whole idea of, hey, you need to get out there and socialize your dog. A lot of people think, like I was saying, that means you need to get your dog around all kinds of dogs, that your dog needs to interact with all kinds of dogs. So they take their fearful dog that is somewhat aggressive and they bring it to the dog park and thinking, well, if I get my dog around other dogs, this problem behavior will go away, my dog will no longer be aggressive because I'm going to socialize my dog. So a lot of people that have reactive and aggressive dogs will bring them, will bring them to the dog park. They've got good intentions. They think that, hey, if I just take my aggressive dog, my dog that's fearful of other dogs, to the dog park, long enough, my dog will get used to them, everything will be okay.

Speaker 2:

And what really happens is that those dogs come to the dog park, they're scared to death, they're shut down and they just want to be left alone because they don't want to be there. And you've got these overzealous dogs that want to play with every new dog that comes in there. That's wonderful I get that part I love and they start wanting to play with the fearful dog. And now the fearful dog starts showing its teeth because the other dogs won't leave it alone. And then, when they don't leave it alone, even more than it starts growling. Now the other dogs are getting upset and then they're starting to maybe growl back. And now the other dog that started the growling gets even more upset and it just escalates. Up, up, up, up, up and boom, there's a fight. And then, when you get two dogs fighting, it starts to trigger a bunch of other dogs that have poor impulse control at the dog park. You know you got multiple dogs. Fighting happens all the time.

Speaker 2:

All kinds of dogs that are messed up in the head, have fears of other dogs, are aggressive towards other dogs and people are bringing them to the dog park because they think that's somehow going to be therapy and your dog ends up being the victim. And you just wanted to have your dog meet other dogs and play and have a good time. Now I know that there are tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of people that go to a dog park every day and they don't have a problem with their dog. I'm telling you it's the roulette wheel and your number might come up and you don't know. So in my opinion, when you look at the risks versus the benefits, I say dog parks are a bad idea. You can get your dog socialized around lots of other dogs.

Speaker 2:

Listen, if I have my dog around another dog, there's a couple of things that need to happen. Number one I know the other dog is fully vaccinated. Number two I know the dog is healthy, not just vaccinated, but healthy. Number three I know that that dog is not aggressive. I know that that dog isn't fearful. I never want to bring my dog around an aggressive dog. I never want to bring my dog around a fearful dog. Fearful dogs can become aggressive, just like that. Most aggressive dogs are fearful. Very few animals go into fight or flight unless they perceive something as threatening. So there's that level of fear, anxiety and stress.

Speaker 2:

When you go into a dog park, you have no idea about anything going on with the dogs. Are those dogs vaccinated? Are those dogs healthy? Are those dogs emotionally stable or do they have some anxiety, fears and phobias? Have they had aggressive incidents with other dogs? You have no idea. Now, all of a sudden, you're jumping into this pool with all kinds of potential problems for your dog. You want your dog to get stimulated exercising, have fun, run around. There are other ways to stimulate your dog. There are other ways to exercise your dog.

Speaker 2:

One of the best things that I recommend is hey, develop pet friends in your neighborhood. You've got neighbors and people in your neighborhood that have dogs. Start to find out information about their dogs. What about your family and other friends? Do they have dogs that are vaccinated, that are healthy, that emotionally are stable, that aren't prone to fears, anxieties, phobias, reactivity, aggression? Those are the dogs that you want to have play dates with. But you do your research. It's kind of like if you want to go online dating, you don't just pick anybody, you're going to find out a little bit of information about them. It's the difference between going to a bar and you've got all these women out there and you don't know anything about them. You just go pick them up versus getting online doing some research about each and every one of these potential suitors. You're going to have a much better chance doing the research right. So you're going to do that with your friends, with your families, and you start getting your dogs around stable dogs. Now doggy daycare is a little bit better because they're evaluating the dogs. But here's the problem Most dogs that are going to be aggressive if you take them into a new environment and especially if it's around other dogs and there's a lot of other dogs a lot of times their level of anxiety shuts down the outward behavior that you might otherwise see.

Speaker 2:

If it was maybe a one-on-one situation, where this dog meets another dog one-on-one, the dog might all of a sudden show its aggression and reactivity. However, when it's around 30 other dogs now, that natural tendency to want to be aggressive gets suppressed a little bit because of intimidation and fear. But give that same dog a little bit of time to get used to the new environment and start getting a little bit comfortable and then all of a sudden that aggressive behavior comes up. So the evaluation that they do on your dog in doggy daycare oftentimes is a waste of time, absolute waste of time, and a waste of time for a lot of the other dogs that are out there. And, quite frankly, most staff at doggy daycare are paid minimum wage or slightly above it and they have absolutely little to no education and training on dog behavior. So that is a very dangerous place for your dog to be at, just like with the dog park.

Speaker 2:

Oftentimes it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when your dog is going to be in an altercation and I'm telling you, all it takes is one really bad experience with another dog to totally mess your dog up, completely your dog. The day that your dog comes up to you and whispers in your ear, hey, I want to go to the dog park or hey, take me to doggy daycare, then do it. Your dog never has asked to go to the dog park. Your dog has never once asked to go to doggy daycare. You have done that to your dog because you're trying to meet your emotional needs. Your dog does not need to go to the dog park. Your dog does not need to go to doggy daycare. Your dog does not need to interact with every dog in the world. Matter of fact, if I have it my way, your dog interacts with very few people. Your dog interacts with very few dogs.

Speaker 2:

Now that might sound crazy. You're saying, well, how do we do socialization? And you're saying, hey, my dog should not be interacting with other dogs, my dog should not be interacting with other people. Here's the thing when it comes to socialization, I could care less if my dog ever, ever, was nose to nose with another dog. I could care less if my dog ever took a treat from another human being or was petted by another human being. I could care less if my dog ever smelt the hand of another person.

Speaker 2:

What I don't want and this is what I want for you I don't want your dogs, just like I don't want my dogs to be afraid of any other dog, I don't want my dog being afraid of any other person. I don't want my dog being aggressive or reactive towards any dogs. I don't want my dog aggressive or reactive towards other people. I want my dog calm, relaxed and confident in the presence of other people, in the presence of other dogs, but I could care less if my dog ever interacted or played with or engaged with another human or another dog. I just don't want them nervous and anxious or fearful, I just don't want them reactive or aggressive.

Speaker 2:

And for that, early on, between three weeks of age and basically 13 weeks of age, I need to get my puppy out in the real world everywhere imaginable. I need my dog and my puppy around people. I need my dog and puppy around kids. I need my dog and puppy around other dogs. I need my dog and puppy around other sounds, other sights, other smells, other textures. Under their feet. They need to see all kinds of things. They need to experience everything. The more they experience, the more they see, the more they smell, the more they hear, the more they feel, the less app they're going to have fears and anxieties.

Speaker 2:

And that critical window is between three weeks and basically 13 weeks of age. Now, during eight to 12 weeks, is a critical fear stage that if something traumatic happens to your dog roughly during the ages of eight weeks to 12 weeks, they can be extra sensitive and it can imprint on their nervous system and it can ruin them forever. All right, let's say this again Critical socialization period is between three weeks and 13 weeks and there's a fear stage between eight weeks and 12 weeks of age. When do most people get their puppies? Right at the beginning of the fear stage, at eight weeks, and you've got 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, four, five months, five months left, excuse me, five weeks left, five weeks left for critical socialization period when you get the puppy, and four of those five weeks are during the fear stage. So if my puppy is interacting with another person let's say a kid and that kid does something that scares my puppy and my puppy is going to be extra sensitive during that eight to 12 week period. My puppy could be ruined for life. Same thing I take my eight, nine week old puppy, I get it around another dog and that dog doesn't like my dog and snaps at my dog, maybe bites my dog, maybe not too hard, but bites it, but my dog freaks out, my puppy freaks out. Nine weeks of age, let's say during that fear stage could ruin my puppy for life.

Speaker 2:

This happens all the time. All the time you have got to get your puppy out immediately, expose it to everything, but keep most dogs and most people at an arm's length distance from your puppy. Know the type of dog that's going to be approaching your dog. Know the type of people that are going to be approaching your dog, your puppy. Don't have everybody reach their hand towards your puppy. That's invading your puppy space. That could be scary.

Speaker 2:

When your puppy gets around other people. You start feeding high value food, rewards. You start creating positive associations. All of a sudden, you're walking and your dog sees a dog. Start feeding your dog. Then walk another direction. Your dog might see a kid. Start feeding your puppy. Then walk another direction. Maybe your puppy sees some strange object as you're walking. Feed the puppy. All of a sudden, you're walking and loud motorcycles are coming your way. Start feeding your puppy. Loud trucks are coming your way. Start feeding your puppy. Start pairing positive things with things that could be potentially scary. Loud noises You're going to start hearing loud noises early on when you get your puppy out Motorcycles, loud cars, trucks, the waste trucks that come and pick up trash All those things. Your fire alarm in your house.

Speaker 2:

A good breeder. A good breeder. As soon as the puppies start opening their eyes and walking around, a good breeder is exposing them to everything as many different sights, as many different sounds, as many different smells, as many different textures as possible. They are proactively Good breeders, proactively get those puppies exposed early on. So if you're looking to get a puppy from a breeder, these are some of the questions you need to ask them. What do they know about the critical socialization period? What do they know about the difference between exposure socialization versus always having to have people or other dogs touching their puppies?

Speaker 2:

I don't care if another human being ever touches my dog. My dogs are great around other dogs. They're great around other people. They're completely well, I wouldn't say completely, but they're mostly aloof. They're mostly aloof because they've been around people. They've been around dogs. They don't get all crazily excited and happy and difficult to control and manage when strangers come over because they really don't care. They've been around lots of people. They don't really care to get excited about people because I don't let them engage with people much, very minimal engagement. While I let my dogs engage with people Most of the time, I don't let my dogs engage with other people other than my family and, as a result, like I had workers over to the house last month doing a job putting pavers in and my dogs alerted, they barked. We went outside, they watched them, but they stayed at a distance. They weren't afraid, they weren't aggressive, but they didn't have an interest in being close to them. And they were very easily managed and controlled because, in their mind, seeing another person isn't the most exciting thing in the world. Same thing with strange dogs. You know you get strange dogs around my dog. They know that they're there, but they're relatively aloof because I don't let my dogs hang out with other dogs.

Speaker 2:

Now you might be saying, well, man, why are you being so mean to your dogs? My dogs don't care. My dogs care about me. My dogs care about my stepson, my wife. They care about each other. We are their pack. I want to be number one, I want to be the center of my dog's universe. You know those of you that let every puppy, every dog, every person engage with your dog.

Speaker 2:

And it's this big, crazy, excitable event. You know, two dogs get together. Ah, they're crazy, they're excited, they're playing. It's so crazy. Oh, meet this person. Your dog gets all excited, it's tail wagging, it's jumping up and the person's trying to keep your dog from jumping up. And it's this big, excitable event. And that happens over and over and over and over and you can't control your dog why? Because every time your dog sees a new person, it thinks, oh my God, it's another person I get to meet and it gets all excited and it's jumping. It's going crazy and you're trying to control your dog and your dog can't, because your dog has been conditioned, every time it sees a new person, to get really excited. Your dog is conditioned. Every time you see a new dog it's really excited because now we're gonna go meet this dog and, oh my God, they're all out of control and it's just crazy.

Speaker 2:

I get calls every day, every day, from people saying listen, I got a real problem, I cannot walk my dog. We get outside on the leash as soon as my dog sees another dog. It goes crazy. It's not aggressive, my dog just really happy to see the other dog. And then I'll get the same type of call. It says I got a real problem, I can't walk my dog. My dog's crazy. Anytime we get on the leash, we go for a walk. My dog sees another person. It goes absolutely crazy trying to get to it. It's not aggressive, it's just happy to see them.

Speaker 2:

They created that problem. That is not a natural problem, that is a problem that gets created and conditioned by people who allow their dogs to get all jacked up and crazy around other people. Those are behaviors that are created by pet parents that let their dogs meet other dogs and they get all jacked up and crazy every time they meet another dog. So when they take their dog out for a walk, it's no wonder. When the dog sees a person down the road, that the dog gets all crazy and excited and its energy goes through the roof and they cannot control their dog. Same thing when they see a strange dog down the road. These are behaviors that you are teaching and conditioning, unbeknownst to you, and it gets magnified when you're taking your dogs to dog parks. It gets magnified when you take your dog to doggy daycare because of all that exuberant experience and play that they have around other people and dogs. That's the association to make. I see another person, I see another dog. I'm gonna go crazy. It's Disneyland Now.

Speaker 2:

I want your dogs to have fun. I want your dogs to have a blast. My dogs have fun. They have a blast. They play with me, they play with my stepson, they play with my wife, they play with each other. They have a fantastic life. Never once have they come up to me and said dad, dad, please, it's been my dream, it's been my dream for my entire life. Please, dad, please, take me to the dog park, take me to doggy daycare, please. Never once. That's your emotions. That's your emotions getting the best of you. My dog has to go to the dog park and play with every dog. No, they don't. In most cases. That's a big part of messing up a lot of dogs. I wish dog parks worked the way we want them to. They just don't.

Speaker 2:

Well-intentioned idea that messes up a lot of dogs. Doggy daycare is better, but a lot of dogs get messed up in doggy daycare also. A lot of them Don't feel guilty that your dog is not around other dogs. That's you. That's your emotions. Your dog doesn't have a clue. They don't know what a dog park is. They don't know what doggy daycare is until you introduce it to them. It's not like they're on social media looking at what they're missing.

Speaker 2:

Keep your dog away from dog parks. Dangerous ideas, dangerous places. Good idea, dangerous places, well-intentioned idea. I should say Socialization. Get rid of that word and change that to exposure. You need to get your dog, your puppy, exposed to everything, everything in the environment Early on. Don't wait. Don't wait until they get all their shots, but don't set your puppy down in a place where all the dogs in the world are not in a good mood. Don't be down in a place where all the dogs in the world are peein' and poopin'. Take your dog to clean places. Don't let your dog put stuff in their mouth. Get them exposed to as many sights, as many sounds, as many smells around as many people, around as many kids, around as many dogs as you can. That doesn't mean that any person needs to be petting your dog. It doesn't mean that any other dog needs to be sniffing your dogs. But you will do just fine if all of your exposure and socialization means that people and dogs are in arms length away from your dog. Matter of fact, you'll do better doing that.

Speaker 2:

I don't know if any of you have been to Europe, but when I was in the military, when I was very young, I went into the military, went into the army at the age of 19. I did four years, did two years in Germany, and one of the things that just surprised the hell out of me in Germany was the way that dogs were. First of all. I was surprised that dogs had the right or were allowed to go into just about any store. People in Germany took their dogs everywhere. They went into restaurants with them, they went into department stores with them, grocery stores with them, the pharmacy, the bakery, everywhere, everywhere. All the dogs that I saw people walking in Germany were calm, very well trained, completely aloof to everything that's going on in their environment. Nothing triggered the dog. It didn't matter. There weren't dogs barking like crazy.

Speaker 2:

By the way, in Germany, when you're walking your dog, the one thing you won't see are other people running up to them saying, oh, can I pitch your dog? One thing you won't see in Germany is when somebody's walking their dogs, somebody else with the dog running up to them saying, hey, can our dogs meet? There's an unspoken rule Leave my dog alone, don't bother me and my dog. Really, don't bring your dog up to me and my dog. As a result of that people not going up to other people's dogs, dogs don't go crazy and get excited and want to jump on people. Because of the unspoken rule of people not bringing their other dog up to another dog saying, oh, can my dog meet? We don't have dogs going absolutely crazy when they see another dog walking on the other sidewalk, across the street, or even on the same sidewalk, coming towards them, they don't care. The dogs in Germany don't care about other dogs, they don't care about other people. They are calm, they are relaxed, they are aloof and, as a result, they get to go everywhere.

Speaker 2:

Second, white night and day difference between what it's like to watch dogs in Germany versus what it's like to watch and have dogs here in the United States. Let's see. Scott says hey, I personally run up to every stranger and give them a huge hug. Yeah, same idea, exactly. Imagine, imagine. Okay, all right, you ladies, you're more social than us guys. So and I don't mean to pick on you ladies, you know, but a guy on a walk with a dog is much less likely to run up to another guy on a walk with a dog, right, but imagine your ladies. Imagine that you are the dog. Imagine a bunch of guys coming on up to you and just giving you a big old hug, violating your space. Be your worried that there's some kind of a sexual predator or something. Okay, you know, if, if I'm on a walk and everybody wants to run up and give my 14 year old daughter a hug. I'm going to have a problem with that, but we do everything wrong here in the United States. I mean, it's just insane the things that we do, absolutely insane. Hey, bonnie, how are you? Hope loves the kids. She acts like good. I'm glad she likes them.

Speaker 2:

Scott says what certified dog training schools do you or anyone else recommend? Not just Facebook ABC crap school? Well, probably the two schools that are the as far as positive reinforcement, gene Donaldson's school, I think it's, the Academy for Dog Trainers, the Karen Pryor Academy, those, those two are kind of vocational schools, the catch, I think it's called catch C-A-T-C-H. You know, here's the thing, scott the dog training industry is not regulated. There's no requirement for certification. There's no requirement, scott, that you ever go to school. Matter of fact, scott, you can put up a website today and call yourself a dog trainer. Tomorrow you can start training any dog you want. It's dangerous too, right, very dangerous. A lot of dog owners, a lot of pet parents have no idea. You get on a website.

Speaker 2:

You see somebody that says they're a dog trainer. You assume, you assume they've got some level of formal education. You might even assume that they have certification. In most cases, most dog trainers have zero formal education. Ask them. Ask them what is your formal education in, either undergraduate studies and or graduate studies in animal behavior? Ask that. Okay, you never went to college. Where did you go to school to study animal behavior and what did that consist of? 99% of the time they're going to tell you I didn't Scary. That's why you've got so many trainers out there, and I mean a lot of them.

Speaker 2:

They got great intentions that really believe you need a shock collar to stop your dog's aggression and they don't understand. Because they don't understand animal behavior. They don't understand that their problem is your dog's underlying emotional state that causes the aggression. They don't understand that that aggression is based in fear, anxiety and stress. They don't understand that punishment just suppresses the outward behavior temporarily. It does nothing to change the underlying emotional state that the dog's in of fear and anxiety. And they don't understand that when you punish a dog, it adds more fear and anxiety, which is the problem to begin with. And then eventually the pressure's going to build and build and build and the dog's going to snap and that aggression's going to come back. And it's going to come back worse. They don't understand that what you really need to do is start pairing positive associations with the trigger in a way, very specifically at a distance where the dog is safe, and do that very gradually and systematically, pairing positives with the trigger to change that underlying emotional state and when the dog's no longer anxious, the dog's no longer fearful, that aggressive behavior will go away.

Speaker 2:

Now a lot of balanced trainers think that us positive reinforcement trainers don't think that punishment works or we don't think that negative reinforcement works. I know for a fact punishment works. I know for a fact negative reinforcement works. I use them for many, many, many, many, many, many years. They work. However, when it comes to using them for aggression, it's a temporary fix. And you trainers out there using aversives, you think it's a permanent fix and it's not. I've talked many times about how many times I've come behind trainers that use aversive methods to stop aggression and how I get calls all the time that it comes back. And now we've got to do the real work of counter conditioning and desensitization in order to be able to help these dogs. And at this point now it's worse because they've been punished for the behavior.

Speaker 2:

I'm Will Bandgur. You've been watching Pit Talk Today. I can't believe an hour has already gone by. This is, I think, one of the fastest shows in my mind that has ever happened. I appreciate everybody for being here today. Do me a favor Go to our go to the Pet Talk Today audio podcast. If you go to Apple podcast, make sure that you subscribe. If you love what we do, give us a five star review on our podcast. I'll be back next Saturday. Have a great weekend, everybody. I'm out of here.

People on this episode

Head Shot

Will Bangura M.S.,CBCC-KA, CPDT-KA, FFCP

Host