Dog Training Today with Will Bangura for Pet Parents, Kids & Family, Pets and Animals, and Dog Training Professionals. This is a Education & How To Dog Training Podcast.

Dog Training Podcast: #118 Pet Talk Today: Dog Training with Will Bangura M.S., CDBC, CBCC-KA, CPDT-KA, FFCP. How to Get Your Dog To Stop Pulling on The Leash, Positive Reinforcement VS. Balanced Training,

• Will Bangura, M.S., CDBC, CBCC-KA, CPDT-KA, FFCP is a World Renowned Dog Behaviorist, Certified Dog Behavior Consultant, Certified Professional Dog Trainer, and a Fear Free Certified Professional with over 36 years of experience with the most difficult of • Season 4 • Episode 118

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Have you ever felt lost in the world of pet training, unable to navigate through various methods and techniques? Fear not, because today's episode of Pet Talk is here to show you the ropes! I'm Will Bangura, a certified dog behaviorist and professional dog trainer, ready to make pet training an understandable and enjoyable task. From tackling email queries and sharing insights on positive reinforcement training to deciphering news involving President Biden's German Shepherd, Commander, we're leaving no stone unturned.

Mastering the art of Loose Leash Walking Without Science is no longer a Herculean task with our step-by-step guide. Starting from the basics of leash control, we dive into techniques to make your pet attentive, transforming walks into a delightful experience for both of you. The conversation doesn't stop there. We also discuss motivating through rewards, and why bribing is a dead-end street. Also, find out how to completely eradicate unwanted behaviors in your pets.

As we round off, we challenge some prevailing misconceptions about training methods. Learn about the concept of LEMA (Least Intrusive Minimally Aversive), and the potential dangers involved with certain tools and practices. Find out why total positive reinforcement trainers should have a formal education in the use of corrections and aversives. So, sit back, relax, and join us as we explore a new world of pet training and behavior. Don't forget to come back next week and share your thoughts on our rich discussion!

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Speaker 1:

Raised by wolves with canine DNA and his blood. Having trained more than 24,000 vets helping you and your fur babies thrive, live in studio. It's pet talk today, with Will Bangura answering your pet behavior and training questions. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome your host and favorite pet behavior expert, will Bangura good Saturday morning pet lovers.

Speaker 2:

It's Will Bangura. Thanks for joining me for another episode of pet talk today, where we take your questions about your dogs training and behavior issues and provide you with positive solutions. It doesn't matter what kind of dog you have, doesn't matter what kind of problem you have. Doesn't matter what breed it is. Maybe you've got something serious like aggression, reactivity, fears, phobias, separation, anxiety. Maybe you're frustrated with a brand new puppy you're trying to potty train. Maybe you've got an older dog that has been jumping on you and your guests forever when you come into the door. Maybe you are frustrated and getting calls from your neighbor because your dog is barking. Like I said, it doesn't matter what kind of breed, doesn't matter what kind of age, doesn't matter what the problem is. I'm here to help you deal with all of your dog training and behavior problems. If you're brand new to pet talk today, let me talk a little bit about how this works. Again, I'm Will Bangura. I'm a dog behaviorist and certified dog behavior consultant, as well as a certified professional dog trainer. I've been working in the industry professionally for over 35 years and I work with some of the most difficult dog behaviors and training issues like aggression, fears, phobias, reactivity, obsessive, compulsive behaviors, dogs with canine cognitive dysfunction syndrome you name it. I work with it. Thank you for being here. How is your weekend going? How you doing with your pups? Grab a cup of coffee, grab some tea, grab whatever your favorite beverage beverages and come on down with your dogs and let's talk about training and behavior. Now, like I said, if you're brand new to pet talk today, the way this works for me to help you with your dog training and behavior problems, do me a favor in the comment section. Go ahead and type your questions down below in the comment section and give me a little bit of detail as far as you know what's going on with your dogs and let me know where you're watching from, where you're listening from in the world and what kind of pets that you have. Perfect, hey, if you're listening to the pet talk today audio podcast, which we take these live Facebook shows and we upload those to the pet talk today audio podcast, where you can find that on Spotify, apple podcast, anywhere that you get and listen to your podcast. If you have not subscribed to the pet talk today podcast, the audio podcast on Apple podcast or Spotify, hey, do that because we have a lot of shows on the audio podcast that are separate and different from the Facebook live shows. So subscribe and you'll get all of what we have to offer. Do me a favor, everybody, hit that like button and hit that share button. Show us some love, go ahead, hit that like button and share button. That way, more people can benefit from what we're doing here on pet talk today.

Speaker 2:

A couple things that I want to go over. Today I've got some email questions that I want to address, because a lot of times we get busy on the show and I'm not always getting to the email questions as quickly as I would like to. Also, I want to talk about positive reinforcement training. I want to talk about how you take behavior problems that you have with your dog and, rather than punishing your dog, rather than causing any type of fear, pain, discomfort, whether it be emotional distress or physical distress, rather than doing that, how can you stop unwanted behaviors?

Speaker 2:

Well, differential reinforcement. When you think differential, think different, and what we're doing basically is we are using positive reinforcement to teach a behavior that if the dog is committed to that behavior, it would be incompatible with the behavior we don't want the dog to do. So, for example, if the dog likes to jump on guests, we may teach the dog to sit, and we can do that with positive reinforcement. It's really, really important that that we have that discussion, because there is a war you might not know it, but on the internet there is a war against positive reinforcement, and one of the folks that was on YouTube with a new YouTube video was Robert Cabral, who is a trainer that uses rewards and uses corrections, but he said some crazy things.

Speaker 3:

This is the first thing he said there is a radical lie going around the internet on dog training. I am saying the use of a versus the use of corrections. The use of information in training a dog is necessary. Anyone who tells you anything else is lying to you. Science has no place in dog training. What?

Speaker 2:

was the last thing he said science has no place in dog training.

Speaker 2:

Oh my goodness, oh my goodness, oh my goodness. That is absolutely crazy. Well, let's just talk about this, okay. Not once, not twice, not three times, four times, five times, not six, not seven, not eight, not nine, not ten, not eleven, but twelve times. Commander, president Biden's German Shepherd has bitten somebody at the White House. That's right. This past week in the news we found out that commander has bitten again. Depending upon where you got your news source, you might think he's bitten once more or twice more. Here's the thing commander has bitten 12 times. From October 2022 to January 2023, there were 10 bites.

Speaker 2:

Now, what you might not know is that president Biden's German Shepherd has been to board and train, where you send your dog away and the dog stays there for two, three, four weeks or longer and the trainers do the training at their facility and then they bring the dog back. They may do some transfer lessons with the dog's pet parents, their guardians. Not sure if that was done with commander, but the reason I bring this up commander was trained with corrections and when commander would show signs of aggression, they would use a physical correction to stop that behavior. Now I've talked about this many times on the show that when you use corrections, when you use aversives, especially when you're dealing with aggressive dogs, all you're doing is suppressing the outward behavior temporarily. So because the dog felt discomfort. There was emotional and physical discomfort, pain from the aversive, from the correction. The dog is afraid to be aggressive, but the aggression, the outward behavior those of you that have been around for a while you know this that's really not the problem. Oh, it's a problem for the folks getting dead. It's a problem for the president and the first lady. It's a problem from commander if he doesn't want to get euthanized or sent somewhere because the president had to send their other dog away to friends, both dogs trained by the same trainer.

Speaker 2:

Using corrections, using aversive tools prong collars, e-collars you have to deal with the underlying emotional state. No animal goes into fight or flight unless they perceive something as threatening that there doesn't have to be a real threat. But the problem is the dog perceives something as threatening. The dog has underlying fear and anxiety. You don't, you don't perceive something as a threat without having some fear and anxiety. Now it only takes common sense to realize that if you're using corrections, if you're using punishment, if you're using aversives, that you're gonna create more anxiety for the dog. Yes, because of pain and discomfort, the president's dog may stop biting and being aggressive for a very short period of time, but I've said it many, many times that it's not a matter of if.

Speaker 2:

It's a matter of when usually two weeks to two months after the training that people were using aversive tools and methods with aggression, that aggression comes back and it comes back worse folks. I used to do this on am radio every Saturday and I remember the last time that we report there was a bite reported and commander went to board and train. When commander came back and when we talked about the bite, I said hey, listen, this is never gonna work. The dog's gonna come back, commander's gonna come back, he's gonna bite again. His aggression is going to be worse. I don't know how much worse it can be when it comes to having 10 bites between October of 2022 and January of 2023. And that dog. That dog was trained with corrections. That dog was trained with aversive tools and aversive methods, but this is the attack on positive reinforcement in dog training there is a radical lie going around the internet on dog training.

Speaker 3:

I am saying the use of aversives, the use of corrections, the use of information in training a dog is necessary. Anyone who tells you anything else is lying to you. Science has no place in dog training.

Speaker 2:

Wow, just blow my mind. Science has no place in dog training. And and the reason they want to say that reason? Robert says, hey, science has no place in dog training. Let's put up that graphic again. There's no place for science in dog training. Science has no place in dog training. Robert Cabral says this. He's got almost 250,000 followers on YouTube. Why am I making a big deal about? I know a lot of you don't want me talking about other dog trainers. You want me to jump into dog training and your dogs. But, folks, there is a war out on positive reinforcement. They're saying that you have to use corrections and they're telling people that there is no way you can successfully train a dog just using positive reinforcement.

Speaker 3:

I am saying the use of aversives, the use of corrections, the use of information in training a dog is necessary. Anyone who tells you anything else is lying to you. I'm telling you so I guess I'm lying. Science has no place in dog training let me tell you something.

Speaker 2:

The radical lie is coming from those people that are telling you that you need to put an electronic collar on your dog. You need to put a prong collar on your dog. You need to give your dog physical correct.

Speaker 3:

There is a radical lie going around the internet on dog training. I am saying the use of aversives, the use of corrections, the use of information in training a dog is necessary. Anyone who tells you anything else is lying to you. Science has no place in dog training.

Speaker 2:

Low my mind well, robert, science has a lot to do in dog training and there are about 90 veterinary behaviorists okay, and the American Veterinary Society for Animal Behavior has put out a position statement along with backing that position statement up with 21 peer reviewed scientific studies that have been duplicated. All of those studies, all those 21 studies, and that's just. That's just a sampling of what's out there. All of them say that positive reinforcement you can train any behavior in your dog. Positive reinforcement you can train any behavior out of your dog, and we're gonna talk about that. We're gonna talk about how do you train out unwanted behaviors without using aversives, without using a prong collar, without using an electronic collar, without yelling at your dog, without using a water sprayer, without using compressed air, without throwing a can with pennies in it at your dog or whatever crazy punishment that's out there, bonking your dog with a rolled up towel. You don't need to do those things. You need to teach your dog the behaviors you would like it to do, and you need to teach your dog the behaviors you would like it to do that are alternative behaviors to what you don't like, and you need to positively reinforce those behaviors. Really. Well, now, here's the thing you've got to be a really good dog trainer. Folks like Robert and other trainers that are out there that absolutely believe that you have to use corrections, aversives, in order to successfully train a dog. There's one of two things that are going on. They've been doing it so long and they've been around a group of folks that are just like them that have been doing it so long. There is what we call confirmation bias, and basically what confirmation bias means is that the world is going to be filtered through our lenses, in our belief system, and we try to take things in the world and fit them into our belief system, whether or not it's true or not. Now they will tell you you have to correct a dog. But if corrections, if aversives, if those tools worked so well, why is it? The President's dog has gone away for training four times, three times. It's going to go away for the fourth time. Why has that dog gone away for training three times? And every time it comes back, the aggression is worse If the use of negative reinforcement and positive punishment, the use of aversives like prawn collars, e-collars, the use of corrections, if they were so effective especially the folks out there that are saying this primarily are saying hey, there are aggressive dogs out there and you need to use this, because if you don't use punishment and you don't fix the aggression, you're going to have to euthanize the dog.

Speaker 2:

And what they're saying is that positive reinforcement trainers will euthanize the dog before they'll give them a correction. Here's the thing you cannot say, robert, and any other trainer out there that wants to argue against positive reinforcement. You cannot say that it's impossible to train in any behavior. It's impossible to train out any behavior just using positive reinforcement, because you've never done it, you don't know how to do it. Now you might understand a little bit about positive reinforcement, you think you understand everything about positive reinforcement and when that didn't work, now you got to go to punishment.

Speaker 2:

There are trainers like myself, there are behaviorist and behavior consultants like myself, every single day are working with severely aggressive dogs without the use of punishment, without the use of correction, because we know, because, robert, science says, not because they want to, but because of constant research that we've done Using punishment, using corrections, using a verse of tools, especially on behaviors that are rooted in fear, anxiety and stress you're merely temporarily suppressing the behavior. But when you don't address the underlying emotional cause of that behavior, the fear, the anxiety and the stress, it will come back and it will come back with a vengeance. So I wanted to say that, because you know where do a lot of people get their news, their information? Social media, and all over social media. We've got folks like Ivan Belobanov. We've got folks like Robert Cabral that are basically, they're lying to you.

Speaker 3:

There is a radical lie going around the internet on dog training. I am saying the use of aversives, the use of corrections, the use of information in training a dog is necessary. Anyone who tells you anything else is lying to you. Science has no place in dog training, just remember that.

Speaker 2:

Remember that. Robert, let me ask you this the next time you need to get on a jet and fly from California to another international association of canine professional conferences, I want you to fly on a jet that was never built by anybody that understood science. Let's just take science completely out of aeronautics. How about your car? Let's just get rid of all the science behind all the safety features on your vehicle. You know what? Let's just get science out of medicine. How about we just take science out of veterinary medicine for your dog? That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my life. This is the last time I'm going to play it. This is absolutely stupid.

Speaker 3:

Science has no place in dog training.

Speaker 2:

All right. Enough of that, enough of my rant, let me go into an email question that I have here that is from Carolyn. Carolyn is from where are you from? South Bend, indiana. Carolyn says that for as long as I've had my dog, my dog has always been a puller. I tried a prong collar and it made my dog absolutely freak out when my dog felt the pressure of the prong collar.

Speaker 2:

I've tried a leash I mean, I've tried a harness, and that hasn't helped at all. What can I do? Well, one of the things that you can begin to do is when the leash is loose. That's the only time you move forward. If the leash is tight, just stand there. But better yet, how about we do some proactive, preventative stuff? Let's start in the house. Let's start in the house. Let's put the leash on the dog.

Speaker 2:

If you've got a hallway in your house, carolyn, what I want you to do is you're going to walk up and down back and forth with a leash on your dog in that hallway. What I want you to do is make sure that there's slack in that leash. There needs to be a little bit of a U of slack in that leash. It's attached to the dog's collar and then there needs to be a little dip, a little U, and then the leash comes up and it's in your arm. Now, at any point in time, your dog's eyes are in front of your leg. You have let the dog go too far forward too soon. What I want you to do when you get in the hallway with your dog and when you've got the leash on your dog and it's loose, okay, ask your dog to sit. Most people their dogs, will sit. There aren't any distractions. Hopefully, in that hallway your dog is sitting next to you.

Speaker 2:

Rather than walk forward, I want you to make a 180-degree U turn. As you make that turn, say let's go, and you can kind of slap the leg that's closest to the dog. So you know, let's go, slap that leg and start walking. But the dog now is behind you, right? Because you made a 180-degree U turn away from the dog. Watch the dog. Don't walk forward with your eyes forward. Walk and look back at your dog's head. Always look at your dog's head. You need to know where those eyes are at all times, as soon as your dog's eyes get to the middle of your leg.

Speaker 2:

Carolyn, I want you to do a couple things simultaneously, I want you to say let's go. As you slap your leg and I want you to make a 180-degree turn away from your dog. That's going to put the dog behind you again. So before the dog ever got in front of you, before the leash got tight, you made a 180-degree U turn and put the dog a little bit behind you. Now the dog's got to catch up to you. As the dog catches up to you, make sure the leash is loose as you make the turn. Make sure the leash is loose, make sure you're watching your dog's eyes and when your dog's eyes again get to the middle of your leg, make a 180-degree U turn. That puts the dog behind you. We're teaching the dog that there is a position that once they get to, it's going to put them behind us and we're going to make a turn. That's one thing. We're teaching them what that position is. We've got to create the behavior of where we want the dog to be on a loose leash.

Speaker 2:

Now the next step as you're doing this and you're getting comfortable, because this takes a little bit of coordination I always say this is one of the most difficult things to teach in obedience work, because there's multiple things that you need to worry about Watching the dog wear the eyes making a U turn. You've got to have coordination with your legs, coordination with your arms. You might have to break some old habits of having a tight leash or jerking on the leash. We don't want you to do any of that, but you're going to be just walking back and forth in your hallway and when your dog's eyes get to the middle of your leg, you're going to make a U turn which puts the dog behind you, and then, when the dog catches up and its eyes get to the middle of your leg, you're going to make another U turn away from the dog, not into the dog, away from the dog. Every time you get ready to make a turn, every time you get ready to move forward, say, let's go and slap the leg that's closest to the dog. Now, once you get comfortable with that, we're going to add one more thing. That one more thing that we're going to add is going to be giving a food reward. Now you should be training with markers. Using markers, that's a communication system that we use in training with dogs to let them know immediately when they engage in behavior that we like that. A, that's what we want and B, they're going to get a food reward.

Speaker 2:

Timing is everything when it comes to rewarding dogs. You've got about a half a second to a second to get. If we're using food in the dog's mouth in order for them to connect the dots why they got the food, oh, they may like the food, the overall experience might be better, but as far as them connecting the dots why they got the food, it's got to be quick. Well, sometimes it's very difficult to get that food to the dog quick enough for them to connect the dots, especially if we don't want to have it in our hand and using it as a bride because those of you that know me, you know I've talked about you need to have a treat pouch. Now markers a clicker is a marker. Maybe you know how to use one, maybe you don't. Some trainers use a verbal marker like the word yes or the word nice. If you don't know about markers, get on the Pet Talk Today podcast. Go to episode 80. Episode 80 is an entire hour long episode that talks all about training with markers, how to condition your dog with a marker, how to use the marker and have more success in training. Check out episode 80 at the Pet Talk Today podcast.

Speaker 2:

Now, like I said, we're going to add the reward. So now, when you make the turn and you slap your leg and you say let's go, and you're looking back watching your dog so you can see its eyes before your dog's eyes catch up to the middle of your leg, mark and reward your dog and repeat that process. So after every turn as the dog catches up to you, mark and reward and then you're gonna make a turn away from the dog. Now don't worry about going for a walk. Right now. What you need to worry about is teaching the dog to pay attention to you, to follow you, to keep in the position you want with a loose leash. You wanna teach the dog position, pace, pay attention and to walk on a loose leash. The more turns that you make, the more you turns in quick succession. You're catching the dog off guard. You're not giving the dog an opportunity to get distracted because you might be taking three, four, five steps. Turn three, four, five steps, turn, three, four, five steps, turn. If you get dizzy, just stop, ask your dog to sit and then start that over again Once things are going really well and it's really more for you the pet guardian, because you're leading this dance, so to speak.

Speaker 2:

You should get comfortable in the house, in the hallway, get the mechanics down, then next, how about taking your dog into your backyard, where there hopefully aren't as many distractions as if you took the dog out front and went for a walk? However, it's a different environment. You get into the backyard, it's a little more distracting. Do the exact same thing you were doing in the house, in the hallway, in the backyard. All you need is a straight line. Do not start walking in circles or ovals. Imagine you took a paintbrush and you painted a straight line. You're gonna walk down that line as your dog. As your dog's eyes get to the middle of your leg, you're gonna make a 180 degree U-turn as you slap the leg closest to the dog and say "'Let's go'. As your dog catches up to you, but before their eyes get to the middle of your leg, you're gonna mark that behavior "'Yes' and you're gonna give a high value food reward. Or you're gonna click and give a high value food reward" and you're gonna spend some time doing that in your backyard.

Speaker 2:

Now, even if your dog is walking perfectly for the first two weeks, I don't want you taking more than about six to eight steps without taking a turn, no more than six or eight steps without turning away from your dog 180 degrees. Now, when you are doing well with that, you should start seeing something after a while. After that turn, the dog should start looking up at you. It's gonna go hey, where are we going? Are we gonna turn again? Hey, where are we going? Are we gonna turn again Now, when your dog starts looking up at you? Because, again, the more you make turns, the more you make turns in quick succession, you're gonna get the dog paying attention because they don't have time to get distracted. Oh, there's a rabbit, oh, mom's turning. Oh, there's a leaf blowing oh, mom's turning. Oh, there's another dog down the street oh, dad's turning. We're not giving your dog the opportunity to get distracted. We're moving too quickly on the turns. We're teaching the dog to pay attention to you. So now we're gonna change criteria. The dog's gonna get a mark and reward, a click and reward when it looks up at you.

Speaker 2:

When you get to that point in the backyard, now go outside in the front. If you have a sidewalk where you live, start with the sidewalk. Do the exact same thing you've been doing in front of your house on the sidewalk. And again, don't take more than about six or eight steps, max. Once your dog is consistently walking next to you on a loose leash, paying attention to you, looking up at you, now you can start adding more steps and start turning this into a walk. Maybe you go 15 steps and you turn away from your dog, and maybe you go another 15 steps you turn away from your dog. Maybe you go 30 steps you turn away from your dog. Maybe you go four steps you turn away from your dog. Maybe you go 50 steps, turn away from your dog and then eight steps, turn away from your dog. Notice that as I'm increasing the distance and steps, there are times when I'm also throwing in just a few steps and taking a turn Again.

Speaker 2:

We wanna keep your dog's attention. If you really wanna get great attention, then the next step would be anytime your dog looks down, anytime your dog looks away from you, anytime your dog starts stretching its neck out and its ears pop up out of curiosity because it sees something in front of you. Anytime you see that, tell the dog let's go. Slap the leg closest to the dog, make a? U, turn away from the dog, then go right back around, make another turn, head back towards the distraction, use the distraction as a teaching and learning opportunity. As soon as you turn back towards the distraction, turn away, little by little, let's say that, all right, you've got where are we? Everything's backwards when I do this on screen here. So let's say we've got a distraction over here. Little by little, we're gonna make our way by turning closer and closer and closer and closer and closer to the distraction until we can get past the distraction. Turn towards it, turn away, turn towards it, turn away. But the whole time you're doing it you're taking each step. Each time you're turning and you start walking towards it, you're taking a few more steps. So it's a very slow, very gradual process of moving towards distractions, but making a lot of turns away and refocusing the dog and, when the dog looks at you, marking and rewarding.

Speaker 2:

Now, folks, if when you're doing this and you start getting into distractions and you're not able to manage and control your dog, you have not failed. Positive reinforcement has not failed. You're just working too fast. You have taken your dog from, say, two to 60, instead of going one, two, three, four, five, six, seven. You get the idea when it comes to distractions. Dial back the distractions do more conditioning, more repetition, more work there where you've got good control of your dog for a couple more weeks, make sure you're rewarding the heck out of your dog. Make this worth your dog's while because your reward is motivation, the distractions are competing motivators, the motivation that you're trying to use for your dog. The reward needs to be very high value. We're asking your dog to give up things in the environment that your dog's very much interested in. Little by little you'll be able to add more distance to your walks.

Speaker 2:

Then eventually you're gonna wanna go back and forth between releasing your dog and letting your dog just be a dog, letting your dog sniff, because they should sniff. They need to sniff, they need to use their nose. If you don't let them sniff on walks, it's like me having you go through the rest of your day with a blindfold on. Because they navigate the world. They make sense out of the world through their nose. We're always looking and making sense out of the world through our eyes more than any of our other senses. For the dogs it's the nose. If you wanna make your dog tired, it's not the walk that makes him tired. It's the sniffing, using that mental energy, because they get communication. They are understanding the world through their nose. You've gotta let them sniff. But what happens if they start pulling? What happens if a distraction comes? Now you go back into the training where you get that focused, loose leash walking and you ask for it. And again, if you can't just walk by, you need to walk by, making little circles. And if you get to a point, as you're getting closer and closer to that distraction, where you lose your dog, you need to back it up. Your dog's not ready for that. You're working too quick, too soon. Okay, so that's something that's huge and you can practice that and I guarantee you it'll work. I've had so many different people that have used that and had success with that. So, caroline, I want you to try that.

Speaker 2:

Scott. Hello from Kittery, Maine. Welcome, scott, appreciate you being here. Vee from Los Angeles, always glad to see you here.

Speaker 2:

Scott says as a trainer, how can I get my clients to get more on track with their training? Whoa, I just lost your message here. Where did you go? I don't want to lose you. Okay, as a trainer, how can I get my clients to get more on track with their training I've come up with. Send me a video of your training and I'll take a few bucks off.

Speaker 2:

Weird topic, I know. Well, I see you, scott, using positive reinforcement with your clients. Yeah, the problem is they didn't do the behavior first and get a reward. You're bribing them. Bribing doesn't work. You know, motivating people is hard. I used to be a therapist for a little while. I did it for four years. I hated it because my master's degree is in psychology. And then I started working with dogs because, well, I was working with dogs before that.

Speaker 2:

But anyway, talking about motivating humans, some humans are motivated by what they're going to get, what kind of benefit they're going to get out of doing something Basically rewards. Okay, for example, some people their mindset. What motivates them is I'm going to go to college, get a degree, because I want to get a good job making good money, all right. Then there are people that might say I'm going to go to college, I'm going to get a degree, so I'm not stuck in a dead end job or I'm not making any money. You see the difference. One person is motivated by the fear of loss. The other person is motivated by the desire to gain, and not everybody's motivated the same way, and what I have found with our very, very busy lifestyle remember we talked about competing motivators just a second ago, scott Look that taking a little bit of money off of the dog training is something that happens once. So there's not conditioning right. So there's not that constant reinforcement there, and usually if we reinforce it one time with a dog, we're not going to get good results.

Speaker 2:

Now, granted, people aren't dogs, right? We can ask something of a person. They can choose to do something. I've got a form that I use. It's called a daily training journal. It's online. They have a link. My clients have to go there and they need to fill it out every day. It's real simple. They put their name in, they put their dog's name. They give themselves a grade A through F on their work that day. They give their dog a grade A through F for that day, because I deal with aggression, reactivity, fears and phobias. They also put down if their dog went over threshold at all and a few pieces of information there. And then there's a comment box where I ask them to describe what they did with their training. What worked well, did they have any challenges? There's a place for them to upload a video and then there's a checkbox that says do you want a call from your trainer?

Speaker 2:

Now, scott, I can't make the folks do that. All right, the reason I have them do that is for two reasons. One, you got an accountability, and people sometimes need that. And if they're told, hey, this is what I need you to do, this is what I need you to do, and as you're doing that, they're going to have success, right? I mean, if they're taking the time to fill that out, they're doing the work with their dog, they're going to have success. That's their positive reinforcement, that's the success. All right, now one of the things that they want is to get their dogs trained, and get their dogs trained quickly. One of the things they want is to get to that next lesson.

Speaker 2:

Scott, what's negative punishment? Taking away something that the dog wants to get them to change their behavior? All right. So what I do as we get towards the next lesson, if they've not been filling out their daily training journal, I just send them a message and say, hey, I've not received your daily training journals. As you know, we need those to progress to the next level and to schedule your next session. So I just took away what they liked.

Speaker 2:

I'm using negative punishment and that's what I do. You know, it's kind of like you got to have a time out now you didn't do your work. And I also tell them look, I don't want to waste your time, I don't want to waste your money. Why are we going into another session when you haven't done the work? And I don't blame them, I don't get down on it, say hey, listen. I always say hey, listen. I understand life gets crazy busy, no worries.

Speaker 2:

And then I'll say do we want to change our expectations on the end result of the training? Do we want to change our goals? Because you're struggling to do the work and, as you know, if we don't do the work, we're not going to get the results. So what do we want to do here? What can we do to get you to do the work?

Speaker 2:

It's about having a conversation, and people appreciate that. It's about communicating with them and having empathy and having compassion, but being honest with them in a very polite way, and I find when I do that, for the most part things go well. There's always going to be some people that just aren't going to do anything and they're going to drive you nuts and that's just part of it. All right, then look what is this? No? So Scott also says then look at service dog training.

Speaker 2:

The worst aversives is slight leash pressure, but not all the time. Okay, is there a way to completely eliminate the behavior? Or what am I thinking you have to do to keep it in check? Scott, what do you? When you say completely eliminate the behavior, I need to know what behavior talking about. Are you talking about completely eliminate the behavior of walking on the leash or what? So if you can answer that, I appreciate it. And then Aaron says are you only talking about addressing aggression? I worked with you two years ago and we went through weeks of training using positive reinforcement. My dog did great, except he was still barking. You then said that positive reinforcement only gets you about 90% of the way. Recommended an E collar. I've been using it at a super low setting for the barking. Are you now saying I shouldn't use it? Well, that's a good question, aaron. I remember you. I remember you.

Speaker 2:

Aaron, I've changed and I don't use electronic collars anymore. I don't use prawn collars anymore. The nature of my clientele has changed a little bit and how I do things has changed. First of all, I do all virtual consulting. I don't typically go to the client's home anymore. We found it just unnecessary.

Speaker 2:

I went and got certification and kind of aligned myself with the total positive reinforcement group, the force free group. There's a big fraction, a faction in the dog training industry. You got one group that uses a balanced approach. You've got one group that doesn't want to use any aversives or corrections. Here's the thing. Let me just be real with you. As part of my certification, I had a sign and ethics pledge in a statement saying that I would not use aversives. I'm not going to sit here and tell you I will never correct a dog. I will never use aversive. I will tell you that I've not needed to do that so far, since I've made some changes and we'll talk about that. If I ever feel that I need to go back to that, then I'm just going to withdraw my certifications because I don't want to be hypocrite, I don't want to lie. I want to have integrity when it comes to nuisance behaviors, behaviors that are not rooted in an underlying emotional state, like fear, anxiety and stress. Let's say that.

Speaker 2:

I use the example of the dog that jumps and wanting to stop that behavior. Now you could use an E-collar at a low level and you could hit that button and the dog might find that unpleasant enough that it stops jumping. That's one way. Another way is you could begin to teach the dog to sit through positive reinforcement. Then start teaching the dog to sit through positive reinforcement, opening the door slowly, then teaching the dog to sit with positive reinforcement, having somebody walk in and out slowly, then start having that person walk in and out a little faster while we're maintaining a sit and rewarding the dog. Then, little by little, have the person come into the home much more animated, because we want to make sure we're proofing with distractions.

Speaker 2:

That's called differential reinforcement, a different behavior. That would be incompatible with the behavior you don't want. I don't want jumping. If the dog's committed to sitting, it can't be jumping. Use positive reinforcement for that. Now you've got to be a better trainer, aaron.

Speaker 2:

I'm not saying you in particular. I'm saying that people that want to stop behaviors using just positive reinforcement, you've got to have a higher level of skill and that's why there's a lot of trainers out there that just think that, hey, I've got to use an aversive because you get there quicker. However, when it's nuisance behaviors, and your physical not physical your punishment, because you might just say no yell at the dog If it's not causing fear, pain or intimidation. It's not causing fear, pain or intimidation. If it's a nuisance behavior, if it's a behavior that is not rooted in fear, anxiety and stress, it's my belief that a humane correction you could use and your dogs are probably going to be fine and you might get there quicker. You might get there quicker. We know a lot about our dogs and we know that they're sentient beings. We know that they've got feelings and where I'm at today, aaron, is I'm willing to take a long, I take longer. You know I'm not going to rush through that process.

Speaker 2:

Now, trainers that are balanced trainers like I used to be, that use corrections and rewards, you know, typically we will say, or somebody will say, it's not a matter of if it's a matter of when you're out and about and there's a distraction that has greater value to your dog than the positive reinforcer you have. Well, today I would say to that balanced trainer. You're just working too quickly. You've gone to heavier or intense distractions too soon that you needed to do more work at lower level distractions. Okay, you know, it's a personal choice, aaron, just like I made a choice that I don't use e-collars and prawn collars anymore. I don't use any aversives anymore, but I'm also not working really with nuisance behaviors with clients. Yeah, we talk about it on pep talk today, but I'm not really working with nuisance behaviors. Okay, it's.

Speaker 2:

And when it comes to behaviors that are rooted in fear, anxiety and stress, yeah, we shouldn't be using any type of aversive. So when we're talking about aggression, reactivity, aversive methods typically typically are only going to suppress the outward behavior for a little while. And because of that anxiety, that fear, that stress, we added to it because of the physical correction, there was some level of fear, pain, intimidation perhaps, and with that, with that, we might add more anxiety for the dog. But when the dog suppresses its behavior and doesn't have that outlet, because aggression is really a way for the dog to say, hey, I need distance and space the vast majority of aggressive dogs actually don't bite. They have these aggressive displays to get you further away and that's what they want. They want distance and space. The more distance and space they have, the less fear, the anxiety and stress that they have.

Speaker 2:

And I've talked about I don't know, erin, if you've been listening for a while, but you know I talk about counter conditioning and desensitization. How do you deal with dogs with fear, anxiety and stress? Yes, we've got to expose them to the triggers, but they need to be at a distance from the trigger, where they don't have a care in the world. And then we got to present the trigger, present positive reinforcement at the same time. Get rid of the trigger, get rid of the positive reinforcement, present the trigger, start feeding is usually what we're going to do Get rid of the trigger, stop feeding. So we're making that positive association with the trigger, but we're doing it at a distance where the dog doesn't have a care in the world and we're conditioning that positive response over and over and over for a few weeks. And then we move, is the little bit closer and do the same thing over again. If, when we move a little bit closer, we start seeing very subtle signs of fear, anxiety and stress, we've moved too close to soon.

Speaker 2:

You know, I've been trying to have balance trainers like Robert Cabral, like Ivan Belobanov, come on the podcast because I want to have a civil discussion about those tools. I want to have a civil discussion about training. So let me give you an example. Aaron, you're taxing me, you're working me today, but that's good, I like it because you're challenging me. Let's say, you know, I always think to myself well, so far it's not been necessary. Since I've changed, it's not been necessary, and that's a key necessary.

Speaker 2:

When is it absolutely 100% necessary that you've got to use a correction, some form of aversive tool or method? And I've been thinking about that for quite a while. What would constitute necessity? And the problem is, is that the only thing I can think of and I'll give you a couple examples, but one is the necessity when I get surprised with a distraction that is got my dog's attention is motivating my dog more than my positive reinforcer. Well, that can happen anytime. But my question is how necessary is it? Can I really not get my dog's attention? I struggle a little bit and say to myself you know what, after that, I need to do more work on distraction training. Aaron, I get it. You know, one of the things I loved about balance training was how quickly I could get there. All right, if you're really good with positive reinforcement, you can get there quick too, but sometimes it's going to take a little bit longer.

Speaker 2:

But let's say I had a woman that was elderly and she lost her spouse and A became depressed. And then there's the worry about safety as an elderly woman living alone by herself. Let's say that her son decides I want to get her a German shepherd for a companionship and be for safety. Now I might not have chosen that breed for this woman, because I think any dog that barks potentially is going to send somebody away. And if they're not going to go away, if they really want to get in, they're going to get in. If they really want to do damage, harm, steal something, hurt somebody, they are going to get in A dog. I always tell people get a gun, because you might think your dog's going to bite nine times out of 10. They're not. They really are not. Even dogs you think for sure are going to bite. You've seen that stuff on 60 Minutes 2020.

Speaker 2:

Train protection dogs People come in and the dogs aren't even doing their job. There's a lot of reasons behind that. This is not the show for that, so I probably would not have selected a German shepherd. I would have gotten a smaller dog. I would have put a lot of work into that dog and make sure that it was trained before we brought it to mom. I would then be doing transfer lesson works with mom and the dog, but mom wouldn't be responsible for training the dog. She would learn how to manage and handle the dog after somebody did a high level of training with the dog. But in this situation son gets a German shepherd for this older woman wants her to feel safe, wants her to have a companion. The German shepherd is doing a lot of really bad behaviors that we don't want at home with mom and it's a danger to mom. Mom might fall over and break a hip. We don't want to get rid of the dog. It would break mom's heart. She just lost her husband. So even if we brought in a different dog, mom's already gotten used to this. Certainly woman in her nineties already gotten used to this German shepherd and began to love this dog.

Speaker 2:

Would I use a correction? Would I use aversive? Probably I would either. You know, if it was a situation where I couldn't take the dog out of there and do work with the dog with positive reinforcement, bring the dog back. It was something we had to do quickly, but I don't understand. There's alternatives. I'm trying to, as I've changed, I'm trying to come up with situations that would be absolutely necessary to have to use a physical correction, some form of aversive, and I'm having a really hard time coming up with a absolute, 100% necessity. Because what did Robert say?

Speaker 3:

he said I am saying the use of aversives, the use of corrections, the use of information in training a dog is necessary.

Speaker 2:

And what I'm saying is that I don't know. Help me understand where it would be necessary. And I used to believe that, but it was more the mantra of the trainers that I grew up around and learned from and hung out with. And as I went through the certification process, I had to do more schooling, and not that I didn't know anything about positive reinforcement. I've been training for 35 years but the model back then too was more volume of clients and I hate to say it, but dog trainers, they need to turn over clients to make more money. Now I'm in a position I don't need to do that. I've got several different businesses. I'm not there anymore. I don't need to have a high volume of clients. I don't take on a high volume of clients.

Speaker 2:

Do I have a problem with people using a prong collar for certain situations? Do I have a problem with people using an electron? Listen, I don't want to ban the tools, even though they've been banned all over the world, and there are a lot of folks in the positive reinforcement camp that want to ban the tools. I don't think those tools should be tools that a consumer can buy without training. And here's the problem, here is the biggest problem. This is an unregulated industry, so I don't know what trainer A is doing with the prong collar. I don't know what trainer B, c, d, e and F they could all be doing something different with the prong collar. They could all be doing something different with an electronic collar too.

Speaker 2:

What I will say, eric, is that there's a thing called LEMA least intrusive, minimally aversive, least intrusive, minimally aversive. It's an acronym, lema, and that acronym and that process is about how we should be training, and the first thing is we should be removing the antecedents, avoiding the triggers, change the environment so the dog can't rehearse the behaviors we don't want it to rehearse. Now we need to start using positive reinforcement and differential reinforcement to teach the behaviors that we do want, and we need to do our due diligence with that. And when we've put in enough time, we've done our due diligence. If we have done everything right and we're still having issues, then the next step in that hierarchy of the LEMA philosophy is going to be negative punishment. Negative punishment is taking away something the dog likes. So maybe the dog goes to jump on me and I put the dog in the kennel for two minutes, because what the dog wants is attention from me. The dog learns that when it does a behavior we don't want, there's a consequence. In this case, we took away. Negative punishment means we're taking away something the dog likes. We remove a treat, we take the dog, give him a timeout, something like that. That would be the next step Now, once we've done our due diligence with that, if we cannot get that behavior changed or modified, then LEMA says OK, now you can go into negative reinforcement and the last thing we would do would be positive punishment. Positive just means adding. It doesn't mean good. So a lot of trainers, they go by that LEMA philosophy and they may rarely ever use an e-collar, they may rarely ever use a prawn collar, they may rarely ever use an aversive.

Speaker 2:

I hate to be an extremist. I don't like extremists on one end or the other. If the dog training industry was regulated because there's no requirements for any education, anybody Aaron, your next door neighbor could have a fourth grade education, may never have put their hand on a dog. And now they've got a website and they say they're a dog trainer and they go out training dogs. I mean, yeah, that's ridiculous. But listen, your hairdresser, your barber, your heating and air condition repair person, your auto mechanic, your doctor, your nurse and I can go on and on and on. Your CPA All of these folks have to have formal education. Then they have certification and then after that they get licensed. And then they have to continue their education and there are certain ethics that they need to follow and if they violate that then they might lose their license.

Speaker 2:

If dog trainers were required to have a formal education and they were formally taught Lima, and if they were formally taught how to properly use a prong collar, how to properly use an electronic collar, and if that and other corrections and aversives, if they use that as the last resort and they did everything else before they got to that, I might not have a problem with it. The problem is is that there's no education, there's no certification. I don't know. You know there's all kinds of people blasting dogs with that E-collar, all kinds of people just yanking and cranking on that prong collar, causing a lot of distress. So it's a tough question. It's something I struggle with because I was a balanced trainer. I also struggle with the fact that total positive reinforcement trainers that have never used an aversive, have never used negative reinforcement, never used positive punishment.

Speaker 2:

I think that they should go to school and learn how to use those. Yeah, they know theoretically. They know theoretically, but is it necessary? That becomes the question. And if it's necessary, can you tell me why it's necessary and let's talk about is it truly necessary or is there something else that we can do? Look, if somebody can convince me it's absolutely necessary to use a correction, meaning I'm talking about something that's gonna cause even the little bit of discomfort emotionally or physically. I'm gonna try to find a positive way today to deal with that, and that is an animal welfare and an ethics thing for me today. But yeah, I need somebody to give me something where they can make me think about what would we absolutely have to use it for? Why not blend the two? Scott says there you go properly, like any other trade. Yeah, it would be nice. It would be nice if we had trainers out there that had the option to use aversives without being shunned, which is what happens in the positive reinforcement community.

Speaker 2:

My God, people are gonna listen to this podcast and they're probably gonna beat me up because I said I don't know that I necessarily want to ban those tools. Okay, because here's the thing. Here's the thing, folks. If somebody wants to punish their dog. They are gonna punish their dog. They don't need a prawn collar, they don't need an E collar. You ban those tools. They're gonna grab a stick. They're gonna kick the dog, hit the dog, whatever, spray the dog with vinegar. If it's not the E collar, if it's not the prawn collar, it's gonna be some other form of punishment or correction.

Speaker 2:

So it comes down to education. It comes down to educating the pet parent, the dog owner, about training, and that's what I'm trying to do with this podcast. And it's about educating trainers. And the problem is there's no absolute zero requirement. And the reason that this is not happening, why we don't have formalized education for trainers that's required why we don't have certification for trainers that's required is because the two sides can't come together. They're not having a discussion. I have been trying to have the discussion. Yeah, I beat up Robert a little bit today, but some of that was in fun, because Robert has beat me up in the past with fun. Anyway, I hope that makes sense. Let's see what we got here.

Speaker 2:

As far as If you're in a wheelchair, yes, a correction may be necessary. Yeah, it's possible. Here's the thing. Let's say that, and that's a really good situation Now. Granted, I wonder how many people in wheelchairs that have service dogs have had some really serious problems where, if they had an electronic collar on the dog, they would be able to deal with that just like that. Maybe, maybe that's a situation, perhaps, but probably 95% or probably 98% of the time, I don't think that you really need it.

Speaker 2:

I'm doing some training with my dogs right now and they were initially trained with balanced training, rewards and low-level e-collar work. And I don't use the e-collar today and I'll tell you, it gets me a little frustrated sometimes. I gotta work harder, I gotta work harder. But the problem is, until we have required formal education for trainers, until we have required certification for trainers, it's dangerous. Anybody can grab one of those tools and really screw up their dog, really screw up their dog. Are there trainers out there that are really, really good using those tools? Yeah, there are. But the problem is you better be a damn good trainer to the human so that they're not screwing things up with their dog, so that they're not causing pain, fear and discomfort, causing psychological or physical damage to their dog. Let's see I'm going through the questions again People don't realize.

Speaker 2:

It takes time and daily training, 15 minutes a day. I even say sometimes two minutes here, two minutes there, two minutes here Train as you live. I like to do that. I like to carve out a little bit of time every day to train. And then what I like to do is I like to throw out throughout the day just random, random commands where I ask them to sit, reward them, then we go about our business. And then maybe I'm walking through the house, I see the dog next to me, I go down, the dog lays down, I reward the dog, release the dog, go about my business, because think about it in the real world oh, wow, it's already 10.05. Ha ha ha.

Speaker 2:

This has been a fantastic conversation. Thank you, erin. I really appreciate that question Because I think it's important for people to hear that from me. But yeah, I'm gonna have to listen to this podcast because this is not what I planned on talking about.

Speaker 2:

But yeah, scott says trainers should strive for certification, the standard should be set. Yeah, and here's the thing, scott, I think if both sides could get together and talk and have a conversation and we could agree upon not banning those tools, but using those tools as a last resort and I think that's where the problem is okay, because when I was taught to use the electronic collar, I was taught to use it at low level, but we started training with it immediately. We didn't train the dogs first with positive reinforcement, we didn't then use differential reinforcement, we didn't then use negative punishment, then use negative reinforcement, then use positive punishment. And I think Lima and that hierarchy is so critical, so critical. When I talk to trainers that are certified trainers and most of them don't close the door 100% to the use of negative reinforcement or punishment. But I think most of them also know that it's for the most part just not necessary. And where those things have helped people, the positive thing is they've helped get dogs where they need to be quicker. But in a lot of cases the dog has had a suffer. In some cases the dog has not had a suffer.

Speaker 2:

Let me just see if there's any training questions here. It's amazing because a lot of times when we have these type of conversations, people are dropping off the feed, and I see here that very few people have dropped off the feed here. Well, folks listen. It was a great show. I appreciate the question from Erin. She challenged me and I like that a lot. So I want you to think about it. If you come back next week, if you can think about reasons why you would need to use a correction, why you would need to use an aversive, I want you to let me know. We'll talk about that, we'll unpack that, we'll hammer that out, folks. Have a good weekend everybody.

Speaker 3:

I'm out of here.

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